New toy in the works.

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New toy in the works.

Post by algunjunkie on Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:27 am

Hey guys did you miss me? Lots have happened, new job(career change), dad had surgery and I have a new project that I wanted to tell you guys about.

You have to keep this secret because I have not told anyone else, especially the wife so mums the word.

I have swapped one of my safe queens for a safe queen that belongs to someone else. Or at least the parts that you need to make it into a shooting rig.

I will have to build to out, set up and get it ready. You guys and gals up for the follow up? As I build it, you will see it. I can tell you now that it is a .243 benchrest rifle built on a Mauser action. Were are going to set it up in 2 different stocks so that I can shoot it in 2 different style of competitions and enjoy beating folks who pay for a name.

So you guys and gals up for the journey?

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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by scorge30 on Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:46 am

I have a strong fondness for Mauser 98 LR actions. I have a few in the collection.

Let's see some pics of the project!
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by dartfreak75 on Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:00 am

thats sounds awsome cant wait to see some progress pics! im a big fan of the mauser action to!
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by eagle60 on Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:24 am

Bring it on !
Yeah, we missed ya dude Smile Congrats on the new job.
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by hawcer on Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:22 am

I can't wait, I love the old Mauser actions Smile

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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by algunjunkie on Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:26 am

Well I am glad to be back, it has been a very rough few months and came to a head in Nov. Me and the misses are just fine (wasn't that kind of problems) but in the process of the crap that was going down, I came across three outstanding deals, but could only afford this one.

Since there appears to be some interest I will do the build and document it here. (Don't tell the other smith on the board cause he is going to get free lessons.) SHHHHHHH

Oh and I will be taking suggestions as things comes up.


Last edited by algunjunkie on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by sdsviper on Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:04 pm

Yehaw Nice to hear all is well. Looking forward to how this build works. chicken
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by algunjunkie on Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:52 pm

Lets begin!

Ok so we have out donor action, a Mauser M48 action that has already been chambered and headspaced.

This thing is huge and heavy! Straight tube 1.5 inches at the chamber and muzzle.




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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by algunjunkie on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:10 pm

The stock that came with the action.





Nice huh! Too bad it is too big.


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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by scorge30 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:25 pm

Looks good I eagerly awaiting more!

Do you know if the action was trued before the barrel was mounted?

My project Mex Mauser was trued on a lathe, then I sent it to be cryo'd. If you want I can give you the address of the place where I have my T/C barrels and actions cryo'd.

The can do the whole action and barrel. With the Mausers, especially some of the softer actions, other than sending them to be rehardened, a cryo treatment is a cheaper alternative which can add up to 4 points of RC hardness.

Since that action appears to be a mil surp action I would be careful loading a hot round like the .243 in it if you have not tested the action for hardness.

I have been burnt a few times with old Mauser mil surp actions being too soft for the round I desired. Instead of the .308 I desired I ended up with a .257 Roberts AI that would not take +P rounds so I traded it.

The full length scope rail you have mounted will help prevent the action from flexing, but if the lugs in the action are too soft the bolt will set back, opening head space.

I have seen this before with old soft Mauser LR 98 actions chambered for .300 Win mag and 7mm mag. The harder bolt lugs sank into the softer receiver lugs, opening head space in excess of my no-go gauge.

One .300 H&H old German Mauser 98 LR action my no-go gauge dropped in and I was able to close the bolt completely and listen to the gauge rattle around.

There is a reason that the Mauser actions have a bad rep on the shooting forums. By the time you have spent the time and money getting the Mauser action trued, hardened, cryo'd, etc. you could have bought a new Rem 40x action with cash to spare.

I love the Mauser actions but after being burnt many times by soft or tweaked actions, we gave up on the mil surp actions, and went with commercial Mauser actions.

Used to be able to buy a new long action commercial CZ BRNO action from Midway or Brownells for @$500. Remington was importing some cheap Czech Mauser actions and the old Charles Daley (sp?) are good source of good Mauser actions.

I just do not want to see you get into this project and then find the action is a worth only as a paperweight. I have been there and it is painful, sinking money into worthless actions when I should have bought a commercial Mauser action to begin with.

When I shop for Mauser actions now at the gun shows I take my hardness tester with me. If the seller will not let me strip the rifle to test the hardness of the receiver, I pass on the rifle.
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by hawcer on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:53 pm

If I remember correctly, The m48(yugo, I think) is kind of an "in-between" action....bigger than a short action and a smaller than a long action. That might be why the action is too small for the stock....it's still a decent action to build on, just a bit off spec when compared to most Mauser actions.

A little inletting and glass work could possibly bring the stock around to being a good fit. It would be alot less work to find the correct action that the stock was inlet for.


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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by scorge30 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:44 pm

Hawcer makes a good point - that stock might have been inletted for a full length LR Mauser 98 action.

He is also right the Yugo M48 actions are kinda an odd duck. They are shorter than the usual LR actions so fit calibers in the .308 family quite well without using blocks or cutting.

Before chopping on that nice stock I'd find a standard and magnum-length Mauser 98 LR actions to drop in it to see if those actions fit better.
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by hawcer on Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:11 pm

Don't get discouraged with a Mauser action needing a little tlc to make it perform optimally, you'd be in the same boat with a bone stock Remmy 700. Imo, a "tuned" mauser action feels far smoother to operate than a 700 anyway. For what it's worth Smile

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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by scorge30 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:18 pm

I agree with Hawcer I like the feel of "tuned" Mauser action too better than the Remmy 700s. I also like the feel of the tuned Ruger 77s too better than the Remmy 700s.

The problem is not so much that the Mauser action needs some TLC, its that some of the mil surp actions need so much TLC that makes them uneconomical.

By the time you take a butter soft mil surp Mauser action get it trued, have it heat treated, cryo the damn thing, and then tune it you have spent some serious coin. I did this with an old, late war K98 receiver that I let nostalgia override my pocket book.

Might be better off starting with a new commercial Mauser action that you do not need to heat treat. Then just true, tune, cryo and go.
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by algunjunkie on Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:22 am

Well gents, you guys are right on the money about the action. I build them all the time and this one is hard and trued. No pitting, the screw holes have been re-cut and the Leupold one piece base bolted down. All of this was done by the now deceased gunsmith that owned it previously.

The action is smooth, graceful and tight, not a lot of wobble. Lock up is tight as well, with a new never fired cartridge case in place the bolt closes tightly which indicated that it has minimum headspace measurements.

It is an intermediate action length which is what I specialize in here at the shop, so I just happen to have a brand new stock sitting on shelf waiting for a new action. It was cut to M48 specs with a standard barrel channel, the action fit but there will be a lot of inletting to do on the barrel channel.

The supplied stock is going to require massive reshaping as the bolt will not close because of the 2 inches of wood that is in the way. The cheek rest is to far forward and will not allow the bolt to open all the way so you can not even extract a empty casing. It will have to be notched or re-shaped nearly 1/2 inch to allow the bolt to be removed.

As for the round itself, After doing quite a bit of research I have found a powder that will allow me to obtain 3200 fps and stay in the safe zone where the pressures are minimal. The max pressure load allowed for this round is 60191PSI the powder that I have chosen to start with gives a pressure rating of 54018 PSI and fills the case to 99%. Lots of wiggle room in case I miss something.

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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by algunjunkie on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:21 pm

Ok folks I am back.

Here is a look a the bolt face. There is a ring around the firing pin hole that has me a bit concerned. It is not pitted, no grooves or anything like that. The best that I can tell is that it is discoloration from primer leakage. I will try to remove it if i can do so without messing up the headspace.

The extractor is a bit thin overall and I will have to notch it so that it will spring over the round. So please Mauser purist don't hate me for adding a safety feature.


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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by algunjunkie on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:25 pm

scorge30 wrote:

The can do the whole action and barrel. With the Mausers, especially some of the softer actions, other than sending them to be rehardened, a cryo treatment is a cheaper alternative which can add up to 4 points of RC hardness.


Please sir tell me more as I have two other actions sitting around that can benefit from this.

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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by scorge30 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:47 pm

You might get away with a light polish of the bolt face using something like 600 grit lapping compound.

I'd avoid any heavy lapping if you are trying not to lose head space.

I am not a terrible Mauser purist by any means. I would not blame anyone for notching the extractor so you can toss a round in the chamber without having to make sure it gets clipped in the magazine.

Controlled round feeding is nice and a great feature in a dangerous game or hunting rifle. In a match rifle or one for casual shooting, being able to just toss the round in the chamber and close the bolt is nice.

My little Sako Vixen has Mauser-esq controlled round feeding and I made the mistake once of forgetting that. I tossed a round in the chamber and closed the bolt. I failed to clip the round in the magazine first so that the bolt stripped the round from the magazine.

Round fired but I had to use a cleaning rod to knock the fired brass out of the chamber. I thought maybe with the Sako style extractor the rifle might not be strictly controlled round feed, but alas no, you have to put the rounds in the magazine first.

You might consider a Sako style extractor in that bolt. I know the Mauser purists will scream, but for a rifle that you do not plan to push pressure limits into the stupid realm, it is sure a nice feature.

My old dearly missed Mauser 98 LR 338-06 AI had a Sako style extractor. It really tossed the rounds over my right shoulder when I cranked the action. Not sure for a hunting rifle I would put another Sako extractor on, but the action came like that and it was OK.

Like I said lack of control round feeding was nice on the range, but I would prefer to remain with the monster Mauser extractor that I love so much.

Saterlee Arms will take your Mauser action and harden it for a price. Last time I had a late war K98 action done was three years ago and with S&H it cost me $175. Service is not fast but it is stellar. Other work by Saterlee is pricey but you cannot fault the quality of the work. I love the Saterlee left side for right hand shooters Mauser 3 position safety. My project Mex Mauser 25-06 AI action will wear one when I get around to it.

http://www.satterleearms.com/gunsmithing.htm

Performance Cryogenics cost about $100 per action, if you call them they are great guys and will give you a rough quote on the phone. Once they get the parts they can finalize the cost. I sent them a medium Priority Flat Rate box full of butter soft mil surp Mauser actions, and it cost less than $500 for the whole box. Most of those actions got made into .257 Roberts AIs and 7x57 AIs. I also send them my brake rotors, transmission and gear box gears, as well as drive lines and universal joints for my off road vehicles.

http://www.performancecryogenics.com/index.html
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by XbonesX on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:52 pm

My Uncle has had several barrels cryoed and thinks it is worth it, if not only for the fact that they seem to be easier to clean.

This is what I found on a couple of sites:

Per Shilen's website.

Should I "cryo" my barrel?
If you have heard that the cryogenic treatment stress relieves steel, this is false. We have measured the residual stress in 4140 and 416 steel with a process called x-ray diffraction. After much R&D, we have not been able to measure any changes in molecular stress after cryo treatment. For this reason we do not endorse the cryogenic process, but we can safely say that it is not detrimental to the barrel either.

Per Lilja's website http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#deepcryogenic

Q. What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels?

A. The cryogenic treating of barrels at a temperature of -300 degrees below zero has been a hot topic of discussion lately. Our short answer is that it will not harm your barrel but we are not completely convinced of all of the benefits claimed by some. The only benefits that we feel are likely to result from the treatment are possibly a longer barrel life and a slight increase in machinability.

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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by scorge30 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:08 pm

For the barrels, I only have my "barrel burners" like my 22 Cheetah Mk1 and such cryo'd. It does seem to help with throat erosion and like Bones said, does seem to help with cleaning.

There is a lot of hype around the cryo treatment, you will find most of it from those trying to sell you on the idea of getting cryo done.

I've seen pretty decent improvements with butter soft mil surp Mauser 96 and 98 actions. Average RC was in the mid teens to low 20s when we sent them to be cryo'd. Most came back with an average of 4 points harder on the RC scale with a couple hitting almost 9 points harder.

For the @$25 it cost for each Mauser stripped action, gaining an average of 4 points of RC was pretty decent.

Did seem to make the actions a little more easy to machine and the lathe operator mentioned they seemed smoother.

While maybe not so much effective in the gun community, I have seen large differences in the off road and 4 wheeling.

My break rotors, tranny and gear box teeth last much longer. When I get the crawl box stuffed in the Heep, with its compound 14-1 reduction, behind a 350 hp V8, the cryo seems to help the teeth from shearing and they seem to last longer.

Brakes run cooler and the rotors last longer. Drive line U joints do not shear so readily when you are bouncing over rocks in a 2 ton rig and get too happy with the stupid pedal.

For $25 even if all the cryo did was make the metal "feel" smoother which is completely subjective, I still think it is worth it. Toss in an average increase of about 4 points of RC and it seemed a bargain to me.
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by Reload3006 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:24 pm

I have worked with metal my entire career. I have worked around IMO some of the best metallurgists in the country These people really know what they are doing. We have never Chryogenically treated metal. But an old German metallurgist use to tell me, "its just a matter of heat and cold cropper just a matter of heat and cold." It could have some beneficial properties to it. But when heat treating Steel the Idea is to bring Carbon molecules to the surface and then freeze them there. Hence we heat the metal up to critical soak for a period of time then quench in a medium Oil Air etc to "Freeze" the molecules in their current condition. that is how you make metal (Steel) hard but it also makes it brittle. So we heat it back up to a certian amount to Relieve the "stress" which is Tempering or slightly making it softer. So for me I have not seen significant proof to say there is any benefit for any application of Chryo
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by scorge30 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:02 pm

I have seen the difference in oil rig drill bits and tools used on lathes and milling machines.

When I was working with my Guard Unit building a portion of the fence along the southern border in New Mexico, we had to use a spoon bit to drill the holes for the posts.

The difference between the non-cryo and the cryo treated blades was amazing. Even hardening with welding rod lasted longer after having the bits cryo'd.

Its all subjective. Some feel its worth it and swear by it others feel it is a waste.

I just know that I quit shearing all the teeth in my crawl box and my lockers in the differentials last longer after I had them cryo'd. I noticed a better life span on brake rotors, and the brakes do not fade from heat so fast when hard wheeling.

I offer the idea of cryo as something to consider. I have had most of my mil surp Mauser actions cryo'd. A couple of my barrels too but that was more to fool around with the idea. Although throat erosion seems slightly better.

Want an interesting discussion, go to a serious F class competition and mention that you think cryo is a bunch of BS. You will have half of the guys champion you and half looking for a rope to lynch you.

I blythely mentioned at our club one F class meet that I was not so sure cryo was worth it on the Rem, Surgeon and other commercial actions. Boy did I spark off a debate!

I think it is all subjective. I think in somethings cryo helps in others not so much. Maybe more of a marketing gig, but Benelli cryos their barrels.
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by algunjunkie on Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:28 am

It is definitely interesting reading and research. It is an option that I will have to consider.

I know that with the barrel being so large and heavy that there will have to be support for the screw or over time the wood will compress and the screw could possibly strip out. I am going to add pillar bedding so that I bolt metal to metal, this is a given. I am also going to recut screw blanks and use hardened steel to make sure that I will have a long life. I don't want to take a chance on an old screw and I want either a hex or a Torx head, just too easy to strip a fillister head screw when torquing them down to spec.

Now I also want you guys to give some thought towards the finish of the stock as well. Medium, high luster, complete color change or dipped (I am thinking skulls here, should set off the metal finish nicely. We need to have some ideal before we get started. Right now it is easy but once we get close then it will be in the front and must be decided.

Also consider bedding, just action and the first few inches of the barrel or would you consider bedding the entire barrel channel as well. Each has its perks and downfalls, and each has its own requirements. All I have decided as of right now is that it will be bedded.

I will post pictures of the stocks. There will be massive amounts of reshaping to be done on the benchrest stock to make it acceptable. However, the standard style stock may have to have quite a bit of material removed out of the barrel channel and that may cause it to be weak and flex.

Ah the decisions that goes into a rifle build.

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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by Reload3006 on Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:55 am

LOL John I am glad they are your decisions too. Metal we can have a good conversation. But wood you are on your own I dont even know enough about wood to be dangerous. Great project though.
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Re: New toy in the works.

Post by hawcer on Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:56 am

Do what YOU want to do to make the rifle how YOU want it Smile

Once the original stock came off that Mauser, the purists were defeated....so don't worry about any modifications you would like to do to make it more user friendly, after all it is your project Wink

I don't recommend bedding the barrel past the first couple inches...I would think it would affect accuracy significantly as the weather changes or when the barrel heats up from firing.

Above all else, have fun with your project...don't rush it, cut corners, etc...do it right the first time so you can enjoy it. Don't get trapped in the "what if" game either....nothing worse than always thinking "what if I would have done this instead" or " what if I didn't do that"....then you'll just end up with an expensive piece of hardware in the safe you really don't enjoy shooting.

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