high pressure signs

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high pressure signs

Post by dartfreak75 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:15 am

hey guys i thought i should share this with you remember my friend i was telling you about that got some hot 243 signs well i got some brass of the fired loads luckly he only fired a couple before we caught them but here are the pics the first two are obviosly not 243 there just for reference on what a unfired primer and normal pressure (in this case low it was a min load) and a high pressure flattened primer you can even see some powder blowback around the pocket very scary the primers are almost twice the size of the normal pressure primer! check it out!!!
unfired

fired normal pressure

high pressure flat primer

and some group pics




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Re: high pressure signs

Post by dartfreak75 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:45 am

Im gonna remove the primers and take some pics of just the priners just out of curiosity hoW many shots with a load like that would it take to ruin a gun? also i got the powder from these loads i wsnt to see if any of you know what it is I haven't a clue I will add some pics soon
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Daywalker on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:37 am

You say you don't know what powder it is? Are these reloads? does he have the container to the powder? Does he have the data that he used to load these rounds?

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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Reload3006 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:18 am

I dont know how many it would take to ruin your gun. but it would only take one to blow your gun up in your face. You did exactly the right thing Shut it down. If I didnt know what kind of powder it was I would pull all the bullets dump it out on a metal pan of some sort take it outside and burn it. There are very few powders that I would feel comfortable identifying and they are all way too hot for rifle powder. ....My 2 cents worth.
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by dartfreak75 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:45 pm

yes they are reloads i asked the guy who loaded them for the powder brand he would not tell me says he cant give his secrets away! Rolling Eyes i pulled the bullets and weighted the powder he loaded 47 grains of something the powder is a real fine almost flake powder it looks like a ball powder i keep some of it to identify the powder but burnt the rest in a metal pan lol all i know is that the max for varget is like 36 or 37 grains and this stuff he loaded is alot hotter and faster than varget and he loaded 47 grains btw its the same guy i said i know of three guns he has problably ruined everyone i know that has got reloads off him as eithor melted cases in the camber or locked up the bolt or something has gone wrong! the guy loading them is a ffl dealer and he says he says he is certified to produce and sell ammo !? i dont know what that means but i think he is full of $H!T and to bet it all he is a really well to do highly educated well paid guy its not like he is some dumb redneck he is very educated you would think he would know better i guess us dumb rednecks are smarted that them suits and ties after all huh lol
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Daywalker on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:55 pm

You have to have a class 6 FLL to manufacture ammunition for sale as well as manufacture componants such as cast or jacketed bullets for sale.

I would not trust anything this guy does. Trying to identify powder by looking at them is going to be kinda hard. If I am not mistaken, someone correct me here, there are powders out there that looks just like the other. He is going to get himself into alot of trouble if his reloads destroys someones firearm or even worst, harm or fatally wound the shooter of his reloads. I am sure someone has already told him, however, the more people tell him his reloads are too dangerous and shows him all the high pressure signs, he may one day get a clue.


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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Reload3006 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:59 pm

there is only a few powders that i could just look at and say with any degree of certainty of what they were and that would be alliant red dot , green dot and blue dot. and thats only because of the red green and blue flakes they put in them. and all those powders are way to fast for a rifle they are good lead pistol and shotgun powders but not a rifle. if its a small ball type powder it could be a huge number of powders H414 ww731 etc. just not worth the time in my opinion.
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by hawcer on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:00 pm

This is just my observations.... But those look like(almost exactly) what my Savage 243 would produce with top grade factory ammo. The 243 can have much higher pressure than say a 308 that uses the same primers, so primer flattening may be more evident...

I never had any other signs of higher than normal pressure and they were very accurate...so I didn't worry about it.

But since these are reloads and the guy won't give you the recipe to double check and compare....I'd be a little hesitant in using them.

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Re: high pressure signs

Post by hawcer on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:02 pm

Daywalker wrote:You have to have a class 6 FLL to manufacture ammunition for sale as well as manufacture componants such as cast or jacketed bullets for sale.

I would not trust anything this guy does. Trying to identify powder by looking at them is going to be kinda hard. If I am not mistaken, someone correct me here, there are powders out there that looks just like the other. He is going to get himself into alot of trouble if his reloads destroys someones firearm or even worst, harm or fatally wound the shooter of his reloads. I am sure someone has already told him, however, the more people tell him his reloads are too dangerous and shows him all the high pressure signs, he may one day get a clue.


OH YEAH... Hodgdon H4895 looks exactly like Varget...you cannot tell them apart.

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Re: high pressure signs

Post by dartfreak75 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:08 pm

Daywalker wrote:You have to have a class 6 FLL to manufacture ammunition for sale as well as manufacture componants such as cast or jacketed bullets for sale.

I would not trust anything this guy does. Trying to identify powder by looking at them is going to be kinda hard. If I am not mistaken, someone correct me here, there are powders out there that looks just like the other. He is going to get himself into alot of trouble if his reloads destroys someones firearm or even worst, harm or fatally wound the shooter of his reloads. I am sure someone has already told him, however, the more people tell him his reloads are too dangerous and shows him all the high pressure signs, he may one day get a clue.

oh yea i agree i would like to find something close it is nothing like ive every seen before!
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Daywalker on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:09 pm

What other pressure signs are you getting? Hawcer did bring up a good point. Sometimes you can not go by Primers alone. What does the case look like? is there a bright ring around the head of the case after firing it? Have you taken a paper clip and put a bend in it, then run it along side of the inside wall of the case from the head to the mouth to see if it "catches" on anything? Do you have a control case that you can check to see how much stretch it has compared to each other?

One other thing that I do when I reload, I will take the outer diameter of the head of the case. You can expect the diameter to grow when fired as the shell will fire form to the case and then cool back down a bit. What I do is compare notes and get the normal increase. That way, when I am playing with new loads, I can see if the head is increasing in diameter more than normal. This is done with same brand cases and same lot of the cases.

Don't know if that is helping me or not, just seemed like a good idea lol..

But yea, check for other signs of pressures.

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Re: high pressure signs

Post by dartfreak75 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:11 pm

hawcer wrote:This is just my observations.... But those look like(almost exactly) what my Savage 243 would produce with top grade factory ammo. The 243 can have much higher pressure than say a 308 that uses the same primers, so primer flattening may be more evident...

I never had any other signs of higher than normal pressure and they were very accurate...so I didn't worry about it.

But since these are reloads and the guy won't give you the recipe to double check and compare....I'd be a little hesitant in using them.
yea but on the fouth shot the case seperated from the head i know pressures vary but these where hot!
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Daywalker on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:12 pm

dartfreak75 wrote:
hawcer wrote:This is just my observations.... But those look like(almost exactly) what my Savage 243 would produce with top grade factory ammo. The 243 can have much higher pressure than say a 308 that uses the same primers, so primer flattening may be more evident...

I never had any other signs of higher than normal pressure and they were very accurate...so I didn't worry about it.

But since these are reloads and the guy won't give you the recipe to double check and compare....I'd be a little hesitant in using them.
yea but on the fouth shot the case seperated from the head i know pressures vary but these where hot!

DOH! yea never mind my previous post about other pressure signs, that qualify....

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Re: high pressure signs

Post by dartfreak75 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:47 pm

lol yea i though so to iv got some factory 243 fired out of the same gun these primers are almost doubled the size it smashed the so flat!
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Reload3006 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:04 am

If I wasn't absolutely certain that it was the reload or ammo by a moron I would check the head space of that rifle. all those pictures and even case head separation can be caused by excessive head space. I would check that out too just to be sure. But I would imagine its an idiot Just hope he dont really hurt someone.
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by dartfreak75 on Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:40 am

i know the guy is and idiot lol we shot 3 boxes of factory ammo threw it with no problems at all the gun is a single shot rossi so i dont think its the head spacing!
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Xprez on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:01 pm

You should never rely on the primers for pressure signs. The best and most reliable method is using a micrometer(spellcheck please) to measure the expansion of the case expansionring.

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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Mohunter on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:45 pm

hawcer wrote:
Daywalker wrote:You have to have a class 6 FLL to manufacture ammunition for sale as well as manufacture componants such as cast or jacketed bullets for sale.

I would not trust anything this guy does. Trying to identify powder by looking at them is going to be kinda hard. If I am not mistaken, someone correct me here, there are powders out there that looks just like the other. He is going to get himself into alot of trouble if his reloads destroys someones firearm or even worst, harm or fatally wound the shooter of his reloads. I am sure someone has already told him, however, the more people tell him his reloads are too dangerous and shows him all the high pressure signs, he may one day get a clue.

OH YEAH... Hodgdon H4895 looks exactly like Varget...you cannot tell them apart.

H4350 also looks like Varget.

Dart- If it's tiny ball shaped powder it may be H380? That's fairly common to use in .243 but there's no way to be sure. The only powder I can readily identify are the dot powders from Alliant, Blue Dot, Red Dot, and Green Dot and the reason why they are easy to identify are obvious.

Hawcer is also right about flattened primers in .243 that doesn't always mean it's out of specs. I also have shot factory Winchester and Federals out of my .243 that had flattened primers.
The most accurate way is to check the webbing dimension on a factory unfired round then check the webbing on the reload. That will tell you for sure just how hot it is.
Also cratering is real damn close to piercing the primer. That combined with a sticky bolt extraction is a bad situation waiting to happen.
I would instruct your friend to stay away from this guy's reloads and do as others have already suggested and pull all the bullets, dump the powder, and salvage the components. Reload them the right way and be done with it.

One final note on the .243
I have loaded the max charge for mine from 3 different manuals, plus Hogdon's data and never had a problem with over pressure.
Only time I ever had sticky bolt lift and trouble with the extraction was due to sh!tty brass which I never use anymore.

It's a good thing your buddy has a friend like you to cover his azz!
Otherwise the next time he sees you may be from lying on his back on a hospital bed. Shocked

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Re: high pressure signs

Post by BigAgitator on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:42 pm

That's some risky business Evil or Very Mad
It's stories like this one that make me even more certain that I never want to fire other peoples' reloads unless I see them meter the powder into the cases I will be firing. It's just not worth wearing your gun's action inside your head.

I'm glad no one got hurt in this scenario.
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by Mohunter on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:49 pm

BigAgitator wrote:That's some risky business Evil or Very Mad
It's stories like this one that make me even more certain that I never want to fire other peoples' reloads unless I see them meter the powder into the cases I will be firing. It's just not worth wearing your gun's action inside your head.

I'm glad no one got hurt in this scenario.
That's a very good point. I bought some factory ammo and used brass from a local shop one time that came from a lot a guy traded in on a new rifle. It was a big cardboard box full of everything for 22-250.....he had Lee dies, a new jug of H380, scales, powder measure, new factory ammo, 1xfired brass, a bunch of other stuff, and some of his reloads. The owner of the gun shop talked me into taking the reloads and basically threw them in for free with the new ammo, powder, and 1xfired brass. Even though I didn't want them, he basically gave them to me anyway.

Needless to say I didn't fire a single one, but I did pull the bullets and saved the brass. I tossed the powder in our burn barrel which made a nice pretty green flame. Very Happy

Never fire someone else's reloads unless you know them personally, unless of course you don't value your rifle or your health? Shocked
There is only one person who's reloads I would shoot and that's my uncle who got me started in reloading.........and he's more meticulous for details than I am, so I believe I'm safe shooting his reloads. Wink
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by dartfreak75 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:16 pm

thanks guys thanks mo yea i agree with you i never shoot other peoples reloads i told him not to shoot these but he said said the guy sold him the gun (who was also the reloader of the rounds which has a notorius history of storys like this one) loaded the exactly same round for his son and that he just dont see he loading hot rounds for his son well eithor he lied or his sons guns dont last very long!
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Re: high pressure signs

Post by BigAgitator on Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:07 am

Yeah Mo. That sounds like a good call with those reloads you picked-up. Just yesterday I was at the store getting some bullet lube (it's orange Twisted Evil ) when I ran into a couple of gun guys. They saw me looking at reloading components. One of them made small talk with me and said "a lot goes into that sort of thing, eh?" I mentioned that I'd been reading this thread just as his friend came over and entered the conversation. His comment was that "you can load 'em pretty hot man. The recoil is a good gauge." Apparently his 40 some years on this planet taught him little about reloading.

I would think that a catastrophic failure of a high powered rifle might have a negative influence on the shooter's health cherry
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