Smoked cases & light load relationships

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Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by BigAgitator on Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:39 pm

Here's the dealio... (if that's a word).

I promised not to talk about relationships on here but... I have to break that promise. Here it goes:

Started with a very clean gun + Polished cases.

Firing~ .430dia. 310 grain lee slugs of ww alloy, no gas check, 20 grains of H110, Federal 155 primers (large magnum pistol), bottom crimp groove (farthest one from nose). These are coming out of my Super Redhawk (44 magnum).

I'm noticing a lot of powder residue buildup between the shells and the chamber walls after firing. It's as if the cases aren't expanding enough to seal properly. It's to the point that the fouling makes chambering new rounds difficult after 3-4 cylinders of shooting.

Load data that I'm using is from Hodgdon's reloading manual excerpts for "325 grain lfngc bullet" which is the closest slug to the 310 grain i have (without being a lighter bullet). So the loads might be a little anemic for my bullet. The 20 grains I used was maximum charge (worked up to it gradually).

I'm going to load some with Alliant's Unique to see if a faster powder will make a difference.

~Should a heavier charge help expand the cases?
~Might a heavier crimp help? (I'm roll crimping pretty good with the redding profile crimp die).
~Any suggestions as to loads/powders I might try that would help?


Let's discuss!! cheers


Last edited by BigAgitator on Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:19 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Bone headed some crucial info)
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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by Daywalker on Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:45 pm

To me, your not getting complete powder ignition. I would look at your load and increase it developing it for your firearm of course watching for pressure signs. If loading more does not help, then try a different powder.

Now I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that this is a 44 magnum?

I load my 44 magnum with a 240 grain cast with unique and no magnum primers and get good complete consistant burns with no problems at all...

In the video with my son Shooting the 44 mag, he was shooting it with 7 grains of unique under a 240 grain cast...

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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by hawcer on Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:53 pm

With no gas check, you might not be able to use the full charge needed with magnum powders, leading might start to become a problem.

I recommend ,as did DW , using a faster (non-magnum) powder. You will get the pressure needed to expand the cases and also will be reducing the fps enough to deter leading( hopefully).

But that is a very heavy bullet....maybe gas checks would be a better alternative.

Edit: I just took another look at your bullet you had pictured in a different thread.

I'm curious as to what the recommend OAL is for that bullet and what yours are seated to. Also, have you tried seating the bullet farther in and using the other crimp groove?

Those cylinder chambers do have a slight taper to them and with that long bullet hanging out there, you could be wedging the bullet into the taper...it will be worse with build up.


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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by BigAgitator on Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:42 pm

Yes- it's a 44 magnum to the tune of a 7.5" super redhawk- sorry for not putting that in.

It sounds like you and DW concur with my interest in trying that unique powder. Good! Thanks for the load info tommy. I'll watch that video again.

I haven't had leading problems yet but, according to many who run heavy loads, I'm nowhere near full capacity (people like john taffin and beartooth bullets... don't quote me). Maybe I should be running a check even with current loads.

So you're suggesting that increasing my H110 load (with a check) could very likely help this problem? Btw, I'm using some starline brass that is rumored to take more "oomph" to expand.

I'll have to check the oal for my bullet. I don't think that info was included with the mould. I'm sure it's available though. I am within allowable length for my revolver and that's all I know.

I ran 19.5 grains of h110 with this bullet and seated it in the top groove (closest one to nose). Behavior (fouling and difficulty of loading gun) was similar.

Running in teh bottom groove was just to be sure I had enough space in the case for the 20 grains of powder. It's a lot of powder. I'm told ball powder does not like to compress.

Are gas checks crimped-on while sizing the bullets or can I get some kind of check crimper that is separate?

Thank you guys for the awesome info.
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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by Daywalker on Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:57 pm

Hawcer will have to help you with the gas checks. I do not run a gas check on my 44 magnums.

The load for my son, I actually borrowed from the 44 special load data. I just used the 44 mag case for it. I wanted him to be able to get used to it without any of the recoil for his first time shooting such a large caliber.

I run unique as it does not require a magnum primer for my 44 magnum. It saves me money without having to get LPP and then get LMPP for one gun. It has helped me out great.

4I am also starting to play around with IMR 4227 for my 44 mag as well. With a minumum load, no magnum primer, my cases have not sooted up yet...

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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by hawcer on Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:14 pm

Gas checks are crimped on the base of the bullet during the sizing process. It looks like your bullet is designed to take gas checks. The Lee sizer might work for you in seating the gas check...I'm not 100% sure that it will. I've heard it will and I've heard it doesn't work so good...never tried it myself.

The best sizers to use are the Rcbs/Lyman type lube sizers,imo.

I not sure if there is a tool specifically designed for seating gas checks only.

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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by BigAgitator on Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:15 pm

That's great tommy. I definitely have an interest in making some specials for my next bullets (240 grainers). Shooting them would be very pleasant.

Tommy wrote:With a minumum load, no magnum primer, my cases have not sooted up yet...

That caught my attention because it reinforces my concerns. My cases are sooting up a LOT. I've had some dirty factory loads but nothing like this. There's definitely something funky going on.

Hawcer,
I've heard the Lee sizer is "supposed" to seat gas checks. No idea on how well it works. I'd really like to avoid buying any kind of lubrisizer from RCBS or Lyman... for money reasons. Perhaps I'll make a crimping tool on my lathe. I'd imagine I just need a hollow die that's the proper size... to force the slug through and crimp that check on.

yes, my bullet is of the gas checkable design.

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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by Daywalker on Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:42 pm

I have seen iraqvetern8888 place a gas check on the base of a rifle bullet. He then sat it on top of a factory crimp die, can't remember which, and crimped it in place with that.

I have to run and get the wife from work. When I get home. I will look for the video for you so that you can get an idea. The Lee FCD don't cost that much and you may already have what you need.

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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by BigAgitator on Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:04 pm

Thanks.
I might be able to use my redding profile crimp die.

Very interesting stuff on gas checks. I've read all this info now and it's a GREAT read for anyone shooting lead bullets IMHO.
Gas checks link~ Both sides of the story
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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by hawcer on Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:32 pm

That is some interesting stuff!

Ok, with all that in mind and this is a very large and heavy projectile....what I'd do next in your situation is start upping your charge in small increments until the fouling dissipates, if no sign of leading or high pressure occur, I'd say you found the sweet spot to work with.

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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by BigAgitator on Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:48 pm

That sounds like a good idea!
My firearm is currently broken-down into its smallest pieces (for a full workover/polish job).
I should have it together by next week.

Regardless of my use of Unique, I still want to get some heavy h110 loads working well.

High pressure signs would be just the regulars right?
Hard-to eject cases, bulged primers, etc... others?
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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by Daywalker on Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:47 pm

Here is the video for you to store in the back of your head for possible tips or what have you. He is calling it a collet neck sizing die, however, it is the Lee Factory Crimp Die.. Just keep that in mind..


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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by dartfreak75 on Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:08 pm

i had the same problem in some 30-06 loads and im having a simular problem in my 35 the 35 is very minor not much at all i increased my load by 1/2 grain il let you know how it works out i havent shot them yet in my 06 i when to a faster powder i went from varget to 3031 and it cleared right up
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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by CMAsailor on Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:45 pm

my marlin in 45colt does the same thing... seeing as the cartridges (44mag and 45colt) head space on the rim, the smoking isn't an indication of anything but the brass gettin enough pressure to expand to the chamber wall... my marlin does this with standard loads, and not mag loads, means to me either my brass is really hard, or my chamber is big...
not sure how that story helps but it's parallel.


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Re: Smoked cases & light load relationships

Post by BigAgitator on Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:00 pm

Tommy, thanks for the video. IV there has a great channel. I always enjoy his stuff.

CMAs, That sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing. I think the chambers on my SRH are pretty big (loose fit with fresh loads & clean gun). I've also read that the chambers are known for being loose on this model. That fact might mean my brass has a shorter life too (more working to resize). Your story helps a lot.

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