22lr nose forming/bumping dies

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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by CMAsailor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:43 am

Well folks, it's been a while and it's been a headache, but I have some results from the Neal Waltz dies' testing I did.

the full write up is going to take some time to do, 3days, couple bricks worth of 22 ammo and scope mount issues.

the short of it:

my 10/22:
failed to feed anything with a larger hp meplat of .087

a flatpoint meplat of .135

likes wolf match target period.

Ave group size for winchester wildcat ammo, depending on the meplat and nose, always reduced and the reduction was from 5-30%
The spread from min to max groupsize on a piece of paper with 5 groups of 5 shots either stayed the same as the ave group shrank OR shrank also, never increased; indicating that the mins were smaller and the max.es were smaller not just the minimums.
once I dialed the 10/22 in with the differently manipulated ammo I could keep the wolf ammo inside of a dime for 10rnds at 50yrds and the winchester wildcat inside of a quarter.
Considerable results when considering the largest groups for some of the tests were in excess of 2inches

The Romanian 22 spit out everything I fed it without a failure to feed if I paid attention. however, didn't hit the rim hard enough for 100% with the wolf, more like 97%... ejecting the round... and re-chambering it for a second go always torched it off however inconvenient, the winchester fired everytime it was chambered for both rifles.

the headache was the sheer volume of lead fired down range and the scope mount thing. the romanian rifle has a rather small dovetail mount, I went to the trouble of finding a Weaver V22-A and V22 scope to mount on it, the mounts on the V22-A were still too big reguardless of the internet article that claimed it would work, the V22 mounts did work... after I tightened them even more, the second mounting...

Opening up the HP to the point that the driving bands on the bearing surface of the bullet smooth out doesn't do anything for your accuracy, but doesn't hurt it anymore than the cheap ammo already shoots for the bolt gun, wont feed worth a hoot in an auto gun. leaves clean holes and I imagine explodes on vermints.

The wolf ammo seemed to have a bullet of higher BHN, came to this conclusion based on the fact that the HP and FP only form to a certain point (no punn intended) and then the bullet starts to seat further in the case. not good for accuracy because of pressure variances due to bearing surface differences when the case cuts a ring of lead of the edge of the bullet and the reduced volume of the case capacity.

the bummer is that with different manipulation of the bullet comes different point of impact... some groups were on top of each other when some were 4 inches apart... means having a bunch of differently manipulated ammo lying around could mean a missed chance at rabbit stew...

The fun part: Noticeably smaller groups and clusters, and depending on where you're at and what you're tuning in for, fliers disappear all together leaving really bitchen little holes to show to the range master and owner after they've been snickering and poking fun at the guy taking pages and pages of notes while shooting 22rimfires...all day... for couple days... and then collecting the brass LOL
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by CMAsailor on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:58 am

for the record; I found it more of a challenge to get small groups down range at 50yrds with a 22 and a 9power scope than a hunting rifle at 100yrds... i cant remember when I saw my heart beat at 100yrds with a hunting rifle, 200 sure but not 100, and yet, the 9 power on the light 22s at 50yrds made a perfectly horizontal figure 8 ... about an inch wide on the paper... talk about straining your eyes, breathing control training and trigger timing.

the next couple of shooting days are strictly for plinking only LOL
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by kcatto on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:26 am

Any word on where ricks 22 bump die is???? i am eagerly waiting for my chance at it, to rent ....

someone let me know????
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by Daywalker on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:51 am

Yea sorry, I still have it. I am going to have to take pictures of it and just do a tutorial. Every single bit of my reloading equipment is boxed up and in storage for a while.

Skip is suppose to get it. It has actually slipped my mind, but I do have them right here on my desk...

First of the week, I will have the tutorial up and it will be sent to Skip then Skip will send it to you. At the moment, you 2 are the only ones that have spoken for it...

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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by kcatto on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:20 pm

thank you tommy..... I cannot wait... just let me know where to send the rent???
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by kcatto on Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:31 am

Hey Tommy,

Please take me off the list for the bump die... Rick459 has made me one of my own... and he is going to ship it to me shortly...

Damn nice thing for you to do rick459 THANK YOU SO MUCH...
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by Rick459 on Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:54 am

this is what i will send you. there will be three punches but this one is for use in a drill press.
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by Daywalker on Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:32 pm

Just an update, I am working on the tutorial as wel speak. Going to run out to the store and get batteries for the camera. I was going to do a video, however, since my reloading room is no longer in existance, and all of my equipment is packed up in boxes, I will have to do a picture tutorial. By the end of the day.....

I do appologize for taking so long, it defintaly was not my intentions, things happen that is beyond my control sometimes. At anyrate, it is my fault in the end, and I take full responsibility for letting it go this long....

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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by kcatto on Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:40 am

Well i got my official RICK459 22 bump die and i must say this is way better than i expected....

this thing is excellent.... cannot wait to get it on my press and start bumping out some 22lr's.....

You are a scholar Rick thank you again so very much....
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by scorge30 on Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:40 pm

CMAsailor did you get the Paco dies yet?

I want to order the P4 as well and plan to use a small arbor press on it or my drill press. I like fooling around with things like Rick's bumping dies.

I am politically incorrect as I have an old Lee cast press, rather than an RCBS. I am concerned with repeatability once I find which diameter my guns like.

I have a Walther P22, a Ruger 10/22 with a Tac Sol barrel, and an old pump Remington 522 that is so old it does not have NFA serial numbers on it.
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by kcatto on Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:57 pm

The bump die RICK sent me.... chuck the punch up in the drill press find the depth of the punch for the perfect bump to the nose and then set the drill press stop.... infinitely repeatable 22lr bumps... then I have gone so far as to write down the different depths on my drill press stop for the make, brand and type of ammo so I can repeat the amount of bump without having to re-measure every time... works like a champ....

it also does 22lr, 22short, 22cb's and I was able to bump some 22mag....

I think this set-up is better than the other commercial set-ups available on the market..
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by scorge30 on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:59 pm

Well that sounds pretty good.

Repeatability is the key to accuracy. No if we can convince Rick to make some more.
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by Rick459 on Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:01 pm

well if i do start to make these available for sale they will be made to be used on a drill press. they will come with three punches, hollow point,flat point, and concave. so what would any of you think would be a fair price?
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by scorge30 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:24 pm

Well if you look at Paco Kelly's dies and others I would shoot for that price range. Depends on the metal you make them from too. Paco's are made of brass.

I was thinking of gettng one of Paco's P4s and using it in an arbor press. Could your dies be used in an arbor press as well?
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by Rick459 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:47 pm

yes you could use bump die in a arbor press. you would have to pull the punch out of the die after every bump but does a arbor have a depth stop on it or some way to control how far the punch goes in the die?
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by scorge30 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:01 pm

Some arbor presses do have an adjustable stop.

I was thinking for those that do not have a drill press. I have a drill press so no problem for me, but for someone that does not have a drill press, a ceap arbor press like from Harbor Freight Tools might be cheaper than running out and buying a drill press just to squish 22 LR rounds.
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by kcatto on Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:29 pm

well a cheap arbor press from harbor freight will cost you as much as a cheap drill press from harbor freight and then you get a drill press..... harbor freight had small table top drill presses on sale for $39.99... cheaper than the $49.99 arobor press they sell.... just an idea...
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by scorge30 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:45 pm

Was not aware the drill press was cheaper. I do not get into HFT that much I seem to spend too much money there.
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by kcatto on Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:54 pm

you have to catch them on sale but they seem to have one on sale about every other sales flyer..
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Re: 22lr nose forming/bumping dies

Post by scorge30 on Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:34 pm

Well thanks for the tip, but since I have an old drill press that I inherited from my grandfather, it is unlikely that I will be needing another drill press or an arbor press just to squish 22 LR bullets.
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